Curse

sno · Apr 18, 2006, 05:01 AM // 05:01

Reading the MF thread got me thinking about different 'gimmick' builds I've fought in TA in the past. I can't think of any I've ever lost to, although there are some that had a bit of potential. I'm wondering if there actually are any gimmick builds that can be half-decent in TA.

For those unsure, in my definition (which may differ from... well, anyone else) a balanced TA build consists of the same basic elements:

a: monk <<<in the current metagame generally a boon prot
b: caster shutdown (class varies, can be interupt, edenial, knockdown, hex spam) <<<in the current metagame generally an edenial mesmer
c: melee/ranger shutdown (class varies, can be blinding, hexes, other conditions, etc etc) <<<in the current metagame generally a blinding air ele
d: damage (can double as B or C, or a combination of both, or just straight up damage) <<<in the current metagame generally a r/w "bunny thumper"
The "current metagame" examples are just that, examples, and teams are always different, so please don't comment on whether or not that's really the metagame.
A gimmick build would be something like these examples:

Minion Factory
Obsidian Flame spike
Blood spike
Ranger spike
IWAY
VIMway

I've fought against all of them in TA except Vimway. I've fought a few teams that tried VIMway but sucked at it, so I've never actually had an experience (other than the zaishen one) fighting a decent VIMway team. Are there any of these gimmick builds that actually work in TA? If so which ones, and why? Any thoughts would be great

One note: I once fought EViL in TA (a long time ago, they owned us but I'm not sure how I'd do against them now that I'm a better monk) and they ran a very effective degen build. It was all hexes (no significant conditions) and it was very slow and painful, they simply piled them on until we were nothing. I'm not sure which category that would fit into, but I'm inclined to put it into "balanced" since the hexes were designed as anti-melee and anti-caster, in addition to the degen, and they did have a boon prot, where as most gimmick builds don't.

Blow Up Doll · Apr 18, 2006, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Spike builds in the team areas can work well but they do require good coordination (i.e. TS/Vent and a good caller). What must be remembered is that you dont need all rangers or all obsidian flame using elementalists to do a spike. Even the basic balenced build can do a spike. In HoH when people were using ranger spike they had at least 4 spikers and an orders necro. In teams unless you dont take a monk you will not have more than 3 with no orders. This can work - you can bring people down but i think there is a much better alternative.

I HoH my guild ran a build of 3 monks 3 mesmers 1 w/r 1 ele. It was a kinda of shutdown build but generally balenced. Our memsers would shut down everything they could - surging and e-denial was the usual tactic. This left only a w/r (played by me) and an ele who also had to ward to be our damage. This was not a problem as a w/r alone can often do an adren spike with t/f and take someone down on his own. With an ele to help it was easy as their monks could do nothing if you timed it as a spike.

In teams it is the same. A simple build of a monk (boon prot) mesmer (e-denial/surge) elementalist (damage [and warding if you can]) mellee warrior (bunnythumper w/r or whatever you want) can spike just as well as a 'gimmick' spike. Just let you warrior build adrenaline on one target then call another target to be spiked. While the warrior build adrenaline the ele can be blinding and just spamming damage.

The advantage of this over a 'gimmick spike' is that it is a balanced build. You can spike but you also have all of the advantages of having a mesmer, an elementalist and a tanking warrior.

rii · Apr 18, 2006, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Ranger spike is pretty deadly in ta. I saw a variant of it a while ago that used three r/n that self-cast their orders to deal much damage, i tried it and it works well. Ultimately though, any gimmick spike-style team will work if you have a good monk in it somewhere and vague coordination.

As for the other teams, iway often doesnt work if you have someone with blinding flash and enervating, but if you dont it works pretty well. VIMway is good with good players. I can catergorically tell you MF does not work - there isnt enough time and once you hit the kill count arena (which my team did a couple of times) you get laid into.

While balanced can 'spike' its not really spike. Spike is when their health bar goes from full to 0 in zero time, whereas the 'spike' that balanced teams put together is a mish mash over a couple of seconds. Good, but not exactly comparable.

Blow Up Doll · Apr 18, 2006, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

While balanced can 'spike' its not really spike. Spike is when their health bar goes from full to 0 in zero time, whereas the 'spike' that balanced teams put together is a mish mash over a couple of seconds. Good, but not exactly comparable.

I agree about MF but a balenced spike can drop someone from full health to nothing in just over a second (using a w/r and air ele) and however fast their monk is it doesn't matter because he is shut down anyway. Running balenced just means that you are better equiped to deal with anything.

suiraCLAW · Apr 18, 2006, 03:11 PM // 15:11

I play TA a lot and I use "gimmick" builds some times.

In my eyes, a gimmick build is a build with at least 3 (almost) the same characters or a build that needs at least 3 "special" builds to work (without one of these, your build is ruined).

For example: I call my build with 3 (modded) touch rangers and a boon monk a gimmick build (7 consuctives, pretty much for a gimmick one))

about MF: a proper MF build with barbs and mark of pain can easely kill any balance team without a trapper or smithing monk in no time. (except when in the kill count map)

Gimmick builds I did:
-MF <- kept winning till the kill count map
-3 modded touch rangers <- 7 wins, died when we couldn't outdamage a 2 monk team)
-3 dark aura spikers <- hard, we couldn't get a decent monk (or we weere to fragile...)
-3 pet rangers <- max 3 consuctives
-4 "blood sword" necro's <- like 5 wins in a row
-blood spike <- lack of energy
-some more that I can't remember

Off-topic: a balance team can still be very effective without a caster shutdown...

Blow Up Doll · Apr 18, 2006, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

Off-topic: a balance team can still be very effective without a caster shutdown...

Of course - I was just using it as an example - i have a flameslinging ranger build to own casters which could easily used instead with high damage and interupts rather than shutdown. A balenced build is just any build that works with a balence of skills from different characters.

sno · Apr 18, 2006, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

I play TA a lot and I use "gimmick" builds some times.

In my eyes, a gimmick build is a build with at least 3 (almost) the same characters or a build that needs at least 3 "special" builds to work (without one of these, your build is ruined).

For example: I call my build with 3 (modded) touch rangers and a boon monk a gimmick build (7 consuctives, pretty much for a gimmick one))

about MF: a proper MF build with barbs and mark of pain can easely kill any balance team without a trapper or smithing monk in no time. (except when in the kill count map)

Gimmick builds I did:
-MF <- kept winning till the kill count map
-3 modded touch rangers <- 7 wins, died when we couldn't outdamage a 2 monk team)
-3 dark aura spikers <- hard, we couldn't get a decent monk (or we weere to fragile...)
-3 pet rangers <- max 3 consuctives
-4 "blood sword" necro's <- like 5 wins in a row
-blood spike <- lack of energy
-some more that I can't remember

In my opinion, none of those were "successful" at all. 7 consecutive wins can be easily contributed to luck, facing bad teams. My balanced routinely runs 20+ consecutive, facing any number of opposing builds. As for MF, a decent balanced can easily destroy it no matter what map they're on.

Quote:

Off-topic: a balance team can still be very effective without a caster shutdown...

As I said in the OP, "caster shutdown" by no means is restricted to a mesmer. Anyone who can effectively piss off casters (mesmer, ranger, kd war, etc) can qualify as "caster shutdown", the point is that the casters have to be taken care of in some way.

You guys talk about spikes working, but in my experience they simply don't. If you have a good boon prot you can catch any spike with a quick RoF, and follow it up with anything else you might have (in my case, guardian or mend condition) if you need an extra boost. Guardian works perfect against ranger spike, and your team should have at least one interupt, which would ruin a caster spike. With only 2 or 3 casters spiking, it's not difficult to catch it with a heal.

I agree with 'balanced spiking' working very well, but as said, it's not a gimmick, just a strategy to consider while playing a balanced build.

NatalieD · Apr 19, 2006, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by sno

a: monk <<<in the current metagame generally a boon prot
b: caster shutdown (class varies, can be interupt, edenial, knockdown, hex spam) <<<in the current metagame generally an edenial mesmer
c: melee/ranger shutdown (class varies, can be blinding, hexes, other conditions, etc etc) <<<in the current metagame generally a blinding air ele
d: damage (can double as B or C, or a combination of both, or just straight up damage) <<<in the current metagame generally a r/w "bunny thumper"

Interesting.

In my experience, the strongest TA builds generally consist of a boon prot, two warriors, and one support caster/ranger. (The warriors can also be thumpers, of course, and it looks like assassins will fit into the role nicely as well... maybe I should just say "two melee dudes".) The support character should have some sort of defensive support, and some way to assist on offense as well, especially if it's not through just more damage.

I'm not sure I like the idea of two shutdown-oriented characters. It seems like that would leave you weak on actual damage. It's definitely been my experience that a highly aggressive team build tends to win not only faster but also more reliably than a more reactive and controlling build. Then again, maybe I've just been doing it wrong. Could you give more detail on what one of those shutdown characters would look like, skillbarwise?

JR · Apr 19, 2006, 08:50 AM // 08:50

Some examples:

Quote:

Warrior Hate

Crip-Shot Warrior Hate
Ranger/Mesmer

Expertise: 15 (11+4)
Wilderness Survival: 8 (7+1)
Marksmanship: 10 (9+1)
Domination Magic: 8
Illusion Magic: 3

Apply Poison (Wilderness Survival)
Crippling Shot [Elite] (Marksmanship)
Savage Shot (Marksmanship)
Distracting Shot (Expertise)
Troll Unguent (Wilderness Survival)
Blackout (Domination Magic)
Distortion (Illusion Magic)
Resurrection Signet ()

Curses Warrior Hate
Necromancer/Mesmer

Soul Reaping: 3 (2+1)
Curses: 11 (10+1)
Blood Magic: 16 (12+4)
Illusion Magic: 8

Shadow Strike (Blood Magic)
Blood Ritual (Blood Magic)
Shadow of Fear (Curses)
Faintheartedness (Curses)
Parasitic Bond (Curses)
Offering of Blood [Elite] (Blood Magic)
Distortion (Illusion Magic)
Resurrection Signet ()

Air Warrior Hate
Elementalist/Monk

Energy Storage: 11 (10+1)
Air Magic: 15 (11+4)
Healing Prayers: 10

Ether Prodigy [Elite] (Energy Storage)
Lightning Orb (Air Magic)
Lightning Strike (Air Magic)
Blinding Flash (Air Magic)
Enervating Charge (Air Magic)
Gale (Air Magic)
Draw Conditions/Convert Hexes/Purge Signet (?)
Resurrection Signet ()

Water Warrior Hate
Elementalist/Monk

Energy Storage: 11 (10+1)
Water Magic: 15 (11+4)
Healing Prayers: 10

Shard Storm (Water Magic)
Ice Spikes (Water Magic)
Deep Freeze (Water Magic)
Ether Prodigy [Elite] (Energy Storage)
Rust (Water Magic)
Blurred Vision (Water Magic)
Draw Conditions/Convert Hexes/Purge Signet (?)
Resurrection Signet ()

Quote:

Caster Hate

GlyphDom Caster Hate
Mesmer/Elementalist

Fast Casting: 9 (8+1)
Domination Magic: 16 (12+4)
Inspiration Magic: 9 (8+1)
Illusion Magic: 8 (7+1)

Power Drain (Inspiration Magic)
Glyph of Renewal [Elite] (Elementalist other)
Diversion (Domination Magic)
Shame (Domination Magic)
Shatter Enchantment (Domination Magic)
Drain Enchantment (Inspiration Magic)
Distortion (Illusion Magic)
Resurrection Signet ()

FotM Surger Caster Hate
Mesmer/Monk

Fast Casting: 9 (8+1)
Domination Magic: 14 (12+2)
Inspiration Magic: 11 (10+1)
Illusion Magic: 3 (2+1)

Energy Surge [Elite] (Domination Magic)
Energy Burn (Domination Magic)
Signet of Weariness (Domination Magic)
Mind Wrack (Domination Magic)
Drain Enchantment (Inspiration Magic)
Blackout (Domination Magic)
Distortion (Illusion Magic)
Resurrection Signet ()

suiraCLAW · Apr 19, 2006, 12:37 PM // 12:37

Quote:

In my opinion, none of those were "successful" at all. 7 consecutive wins can be easily contributed to luck, facing bad teams. My balanced routinely runs 20+ consecutive, facing any number of opposing builds. As for MF, a decent balanced can easily destroy it no matter what map they're on.

I didn't even use the word "succesfull" at all. Actually, I only said that my example build has much win if you compare it with other gimmick builds.

Blow Up Doll · Apr 19, 2006, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Well i think that proves that the gimmick builds just dont work that well compared to a well run balenced build...

Pillage · Apr 19, 2006, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Builds are just builds.
Good players are the source of winning. For example rip the bar off a top level guild in GVG or HA and put new players into the build. You will see that the new players will not even compare to the skilled players.

The only thing a build is good for is to understand what the "theme" is and how to react to other builds. For example a good leader with build reconigtion can easily determine how to beat the other team based on the build he is running. This is why skilled players in balanced are good because they do not have a evident weakpoint to exploit.

For example in order to beat certain builds:

1) IWAY: Aegis, Wards, Frozen
2) Ranger Spike: Energy Deny, Fertile, Drop Bonder
3) Blood Spike: Interrupts, hexes (Migraine) Power Leak
4) Hex Heavy: Convert Hexes, NR
5) VIMway: AOE Dmg

If you play a specifc build understand your strength, i.e. fast killing, shut down etc and understand your weakness because it will be exploited.

Solberg the Exiled · Apr 26, 2006, 01:15 AM // 01:15

It is simply harder to run gimmick build in TA simply due to the fact that you only have 4 person, and full out builds like eoe bomb just can't be performed. With that aside, a powerful spike build can work quite well.

My team was running in TA sometimes ago with a balenced team. The usual boon prot, air ele, mesmer and me as the axe warrior. We were going quite strong, going over 25 wins already when we met a LUM rainbow spike team.

They took us down so fast it was even funny. The spikes came at about every 4 second, and it simply dropped a target on the spike. I don't think I got 1 hit in in that game. As you can see, spike team can work perfectly if everyone knows what their doing and are well coordinated.

JR · Apr 26, 2006, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solberg the Exiled

My team was running in TA sometimes ago with a balenced team. The usual boon prot, air ele, mesmer and me as the axe warrior. We were going quite strong, going over 25 wins already when we met a LUM rainbow spike team.

They took us down so fast it was even funny. The spikes came at about every 4 second, and it simply dropped a target on the spike. I don't think I got 1 hit in in that game. As you can see, spike team can work perfectly if everyone knows what their doing and are well coordinated.

Sounds like you need a better Boon Prot.

The other downfall of spike in TA is that the monk only has four people to watch. This makes it much easier to determine who will be the target of the spike, through watching animations, knowing which member is likely to be a priority... and so on. Hell you could keep half of your team prot spirited fairly easily if you needed to.

Solberg the Exiled · Apr 26, 2006, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Perhaps you're right. But I'm still of the opinion that a well coordinated spike could take go for a looooong streak of wins. But then again, a lot of things can go for a looooong streak of wins in TA as loing as it's coordinated.

Sample Attack · Apr 26, 2006, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Hi What's up Pillage

Unless you 're facing good IWAY Players and most of them don't go to TA.....
All the Gimmick builds are for Fame Farming .. Easy to Run and Well Design for HA. and Most Top Guild Run Balance hardly see in HA Which they Practice in TA. Because they want to split 4 to 4.

Try zaishen Vimway , Iway ... they are better than most TA players learning how to iway ....
Obsidian / Blood / R-Spike Design for Eight Players because of they're Squshy and easily be killed. They need help from other four players which they don't have.